VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

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Would you like to see vmod included by default in the next version?

32% 32% 
[ 6 ]
47% 47% 
[ 9 ]
21% 21% 
[ 4 ]
0% 0% 
[ 0 ]
 
Total Votes : 19

VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Weeble on Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:49 am

So it seems there's quite a lot of division because of vmod and I think now is a good time to decide whether it should be in the next version or not so I added a poll to gather everyone's opinions. Some people are used to it now but don't like it (me), some refuse to play on it completely, and other(s) like to (ab)use it when dribbling.  

My opinion in short : it eliminates the need for airbattles which I saw as a positive part of soccer and adds a lot of power to dribbling to the point where it is unbalanced to those who know how to exploit this ''loophole'' (vmod) as I call it, whereas I prefer the focus to be on the teamplay (passing) aspect of the game. Also I think it's pretty clear that v goal jumping and aiming can get pretty imba.

Lastly, if people are going to completely refuse to play just because of this feature, this reason alone is enough to remove it in time for the next ver. I want to add several players such as toter, magics, dumble, valnar who probably won't vote on this poll that don't want to play with vmod therefore imo if there is not at least 90% of players who fully support vmod, I don't see how this its fair to those who don't support it to keep such a divisive yet unneccesary gameplay change.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ultrapro on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:16 am

Omg let's remove C (long pass)! I've seen many 1x1 duels and when people use C they shit the game. Why the fuck we need this C? Let's eliminate it. People don't develop in dribbling when they get used to C. It makes players deteriorating. Let's get rid of this evil skill!

(Добьемся новых спортивных успехов!)

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Weeble on Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:47 pm

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ultrapro on Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:29 pm

The Question:we want the game to be flexible and customizable ingame or set and modded by default. Only two ways of development i see.
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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by GaDo1 on Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:22 am

Since it makes no sense to not give an explanation for the votes, I'll share what I voted and why.
I voted "no". Simply because the game has become revolved around VMOD, since the discovery of its abilities, in my opinion.
Though, I actually like the feature itself. It brought a new aspect to the game and made everyone who played the game for so long, to be able to feel that sensation where you know that there was still something to explore and master out there. It developed a different style of play for people who were exploring and/or creating new sets of tricks.

However, as time passed by, I realised the game had changed. From being a game where you had to use all the abilities that you had creatively and efficiently, now you have a superior ability that nullifies any of your attempts to grow as a player and thinking creatively. Here's why..

You can almost counter/negate any move with VMOD and using it, means you don't have to use other abilities at all, because VMOD can be used for anything. If you want to pass, you can use VMOD, if you want to dribble, you can use VMOD, if you want to score, you can use VMOD, and so on. Obviously, not everyone uses it to this extent, but because the feature can be used and actually is so strong that it can be used this way, means it's just a matter of time before EVERYONE starts using it this way.
This takes me to my following point, which is that the skillgap DECREASED instead of increased. You may think this sounds weird, because it's a new feature and it's actually hard to execute if you don't know it.
Exactly.. IF you don't know it, it's hard to execute and play against. But if you know it, everyone's on the same level. Why? Surely, everyone uses it differently depending on the situation, but the fact that everyone USES it to tackle every situation, means a decrease in creative and different thinking. Basically, there is no difference in skill level.
(Now of course, this doesn't mean that everyone is on the same level of overall gameplay, which is another topic.. Just on how to use VMOD and when to use VMOD.)

What I was getting to, is that if the feature is severly abused, then there is no need to have other abilities, such as Z, which are useless if you can pass much better by using VMOD. (Of course, Z can be used much better than VMOD, ex. if you don't have the ball in air, you can Z to pass close allies, but overall VMOD can be used and even be used at the same situation as Z, and even better. Ex, if you have the ball in air.)
It's another one of those features that aren't obvious and don't show in the game, which makes the game more complicated than it already is. New players won't know that there is such a feature unless you tell them directly or they find out by chance, if they actually played enough. (Examples of similar features, V+X, V+Z, X+V, however these aren't as overpowered and can be countered much easier and in different ways.)

Finally, I believe that the gameplay is already complete for now. There have been many changes to the past versions, excluding VMOD, that changed the game completely. For instance, if we play 41c, the modified old version, it's completely different from the version we have now. Recent versions are much more fast-paced and they bring gameplay suitable for our ping at the moment. What we have to do isn't changing the gameplay.. We should be trying to change our approach towards the other aspects of the things revolving the game, the community, the visual aspects, advertising, etc.

Our FIFA World Cup version of the map is almost done and it's great that we managed to make one in time for the actualy World Cup. Going down this road, instead of the one causing discussions and arguments, is what will make us enjoy our time playing the game and also having fun, not just for us who are active, but also for those who come from time to time.


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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Magicsisthebestaround on Sun Jun 15, 2014 11:50 am

I think this has taken a long time, but people seem to have come to their senses.
I prefer to look at it like this, Without v mod in air battles you have to care about positioning of yourself and the positioning of your opponent. With v mod you click v and then x and everything else is irrelevant. Receiving a high pass outside your opponents box, Without v mod you will have to attempt to take the ball and beat a defender or hold up so that you allies are in position to make a play, With v mod you can score from distances similar to that of a c goal (which was seen as op).

I don't think i need to touch on the dribbling as Weeble and Gado already mentioned it, but for me i would prefer a game where you can get punished for your mistakes and not just v mod your way out of everything because you lack the basic positioning or common sense.

In the past we have seen certain features as too strong for example High c, But high c only effected the passing part of the game as C goals were disabled, But v mod is influencing every part of the game not just one certain aspect and it is really takes my motivation away because at the moment V mod in any situation of the game is better than any other hot hey.

I believe we had high c for like 2 weeks to a month and it was abolished, but we have put up with this unbalanced crap for so long and i don't think anyone has the drive to play this game seriously anymore.



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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Dafling on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:06 pm

OK, I'd like to hear opinions from both sides, those who approve of v mod and from those who want to see it removed.
Thanks to Magics/Gado for their explanation. I will continue to follow this thread.
Do not expect me to quickly remove v mod, this will definitely take some time to consider all the viewpoints.

Here are some players I would've loved to hear: Shine, Valnar, Bread, Black, Wzm, Anto, Ibra, Alexwarpro/Zarich, and anyone else who has an opinion.
(Just went through the clan information on bnet website.)

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Doge

Post by BreadFace on Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:00 pm

Well met

I think v mod is a great addition to the game (I voterinod yes). V mod is perfectly balanced and doesnt nullify any other ability. It's just a non random way to use auto v. (Also it's super fun)

You still need positioning even with v mod in the game and it doesn't remove any passing aspect of the game.

Basically I disagree with everything gado & weeble said


You might as well nerf slide if you think v mod should be nerfed because of these reasons. It's op, cant be countered and doesn't require any skills to use

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Poppy on Sun Jun 15, 2014 5:15 pm

Totally unbalanced skill in my opinion. In theory, it's a great idea to have in the game, negating the amount of sloppy goals that were caused by people heading the ball around the keeper and it getting slid into the net. Although I think it's a decent idea to have included in the game, as directing headers is paramount in real life football, although it is not possible to pragmatically apply that to the wc3 game.

Significantly so with newcomers, v mod has evolved into a part of the game which people and newcomers spend time trying to perfect and work around, which for me hampers players learning different and more crucial parts to the game. Parts of the game which imo are more important for them to become capable players within the community.

Pet hates of v mod:

People trying to use it to control a ball but completely ballsing up, wasting a certain opportunity. (We used to just time our jump to catch it, what is wrong with that?)
The good ol' outside of the box power header from a max range c pass.
When the game basically turns into a game of pinball/ping pong.
If you v mod correctly you can navigate the entirety of the map without the ball ever touching the floor.

People argue v mod is crucial for good dribbling, these people have no idea how to dribble. If you learn to dribble without v mod, then you can dribble.

Underlining point: V mod is theoretically a good idea, in practice however it makes the game mind numbing to play (imo)
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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ServusSnape on Sun Jun 15, 2014 10:08 pm

i just outlined some quotes which basically resemble my opinion
GaDo1 wrote:From being a game where you had to use all the abilities that you had creatively and efficiently, now you have a superior ability that nullifies any of your attempts to grow as a player and thinking creatively.
Magicsisthebestaround wrote:...at the moment V mod in any situation of the game is better than any other hot hey.
Magicsisthebestaround wrote:...i would prefer a game where you can get punished for your mistakes and not just v mod your way out of everything because you lack the basic positioning or common sense.
Poppy wrote:...the game basically turns into a game of pinball/ping pong.
choosing vmod over other abilities should come with strategic tradeoffs, but many players are choosing vmod regardless of the situation .it's a mechanical feature which offers no counterplay at the moment.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ShineXXX on Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:43 am

the main reason why i was quite optimistic about vmod in the beginning was especially regarding the situations trying to defend the ball on the goal line. When you headed the ball it always went slowly to the keeper, so that the enemys could catch the ball before the keeper did and score. It were mostly undefendable goals. But maybe i was also upset about the previous mistakes which lead into those situations...

But as time passed ive also become sceptical about v mod... i experienced more and more how games are often dominated by pure v mod fights... the game can sometimes become quite onesided since v mod seems too overused also to me... the balance of the gameplay kinda fades away... it moves to a different way of playing of everyone... and by the way... i can remember we were also happy before v mod existed...
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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Weeble on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:35 pm

Morgan the sooner you remove vmod (and curve ofc) for the next pro version the better (I think it's pretty clear public opinion is against it, add vmod as a mode if u really have to, but it should definitely NOT be included by default) but until then we either have to play on a vmod version or an old version without vmod but also without the improvements. Until then you will have players being flamed for using vmod on a vmod version (go figure) instead of blaming the system which is clearly broken. That's why we need you to fix it, ASAP!!!  pale

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Valnar22 on Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:15 pm

Well to be honest my first impression after seeing ultrapros and Weebles "conversation" ( yea lets call it that way.. ) almost led me to the thought of just closeing the tab since they both lacked in depth detail and argumentation ( plus the respect required to actualy ensure proper communication between individuals ). Now is communication required for this topic one may ask since its a poll.. the "winning side" gets their will right? Well unfortunely its not as easy as that since in the end a poll is nothing more then a simple multiple choice application which adds nothing into the mind of people except finding out how many people are pro or contra against a thing without giving any actual explaination on whys that. What iam trying to say is that our community is small and any loss of a player ( which isnt damaging our community more then hes benefiting it ) is hurting the game dramaticaly. Due to the impatient nature of people ( fewer players means longer waiting ) less games and therefore less motivation will be succesfuly created in order to keep the game running which is a self feeding cycle until it runs out of "fuel". The question about vmod is in reality nothing more then what plagues this community from its very start. People tend to ( if at all ) talk AT each other without trying to explain their side properly and thus is making improvement impossible. Despite me being against the vmod and wanting it to be taken out of the default setup I love this game too much to be ignoring this crucial factor being the other side which can be expected to quit the game likely if they explainlessly get forced to abbandon their prefered way of playing our everyones game. So what makes vmod such a powerful, tactical and skill decreasing element what the opposite of the coin keeps on mentioning? Well the reason is versatile and not as easy to explain as people tryed here. For instance and this is one major factor which in my many conversations with pro and contrarian people didnt seem to get mentioned is that vmodding emphersizes reaction instead of prediction for ground battles. The reason for that is simply being the high range and low time it takes for the vmod to fullfill its effect paired with the ability to control the heading direction while maintaining a short period of invincibility. Or in other words : Since auto v didnt always had a effective route ( depending on the positions of the players ) and therefore wasnt desired in every situation, you had to press v in many classic defending scenarios a good ammount of time before a action actualy took place ( catching ) which required more prediction and therefore also more tactical indepth knowledge in order to get the greater effectivity. Another reason would be that if a vmodder gets past someone he ultimately outruns the opponent fairly easy by chaining x and vmod forward dribblings essentialy just as effective as x forwarding without requiring difficult timeing and granting less possession over the ball so fewer time is being lost. Practicaly impossible for the defender to catch up to him and create a threat again the attacker got himself precious room earned which leads us to the most dramatical part of this topic : The air battles "insert dramatic tune here". Where shall we begin? Well.. if we would reduce the game down to its very core what does grant victory in this game throughout all its versions? Is it the teamplay? the dribbling? the positioning?.. Its everything which grants less space towards the opponents goal. In this game getting closer to the goal / preventing your opponent from it is ( or to be more precise "was" ) the main difficult since in close to very closeup ranges certain ways of scoring are impossible to defend ( which itself isnt the problem aslong the path in order to achieve this goal is holding it in balance by having high requirements to maintain a great niveau of skill ). Now appart from the scenarios and attributes regarding to vmod ive mentioned above its real impact on the skill and tactical level is in the airbattles due to its lets call it "cost efficiency". Whereas a classic air fight would depending on the constelation and situation offer up to atleast four possibilitys ( and we are only talking about solo air fighting here ) of approaching the opponent ( f.e. positioning yourself behind a opponent offers a likely victory of the ball given the opponent doesnt possess airlead timeing and vice versa getting ball possession first asures the victory but is not always of most advantage and requires frame perfect timeing ). We basicialy had a situation where every option has their respective pros and cons.. a great tactical foundation unlike in the "newgen" air fights for the following reasons : vmod ditches the ball possession system and has superior range which means its first : requiring less precise positioning and secondly being far more important : its positioning is in practice not dependent of the opponents position being relative to the fixed ( most optimal ) point. But instead aims directly for the fixed point making it while being absolutely obvious only counterable with another vmod. The air fight isnt anymore about who considers and predicts better but instead : Who is able to press in the soonest moment to reach the ball first as possible. Since the x buffering allows for a great ammount of timeing tollerance the need to time your actions after winning the air fight is dropped aswell. I think I dont have to mention the vmod heading pass and shooting gains without "cost" ( great difficult / a great enough penalty for a failure ) and thus winning of space so lets jump to the final of this. While theres so many bad to say about vmod all the other updates ( appart from curve ) actualy were splendid! I want to adress this to the people who dont understand and specificialy morgan : People which are against vmod and curve arent against you but just those two elements which unfortunely are outweighting the goods with their bads and are incompatible with the high competitive base structure of gameplay we have build ourselfs through all those awesome years we spent together which you have contributed a great part to it too. In the conclusion we went from air battles which had so many variables and such complex pathfinding involved, people in those fights tryed that hard to get into the best possible position, it overchallenged and caused both fractions to miss the ball. To a fairly easy pathfinding with less options and timeing requirement. In hope that this text helps to contribute to the understanding of people regarding to this topic ( and soccer in general being it on a technical or psychological standpoint ) I will give my final answer and vote which shall be a No to vmod.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ultrapro on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:34 pm

Vmod in your goal zone would be fair.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by GaDo1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 1:59 pm

The majority voted "NO", what is going on? Where are you, Dafling?

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Dafling on Mon Jun 23, 2014 3:37 pm

I attempted to balance V mod with the new version, 7.47c1.1.

But it's not on the bot yet, so noone can play it. Where are you, Gado?

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ShineXXX on Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:08 pm

ultrapro wrote:Vmod in your goal zone would be fair.

hm... maybe yes... this could at least solve those situation when you automatically head to the keeper which is easy to score and annoying to defend properly without v mod

what do you think, guys?
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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by GaDo1 on Mon Jun 23, 2014 5:46 pm

Discussion about how to balance VMOD hasn't been made in public (on this forum) and yet another feature has been added again without people knowing it. What are you doing, Dafling?
Besides, this poll isn't for balancing, it's for removing VMOD from the newest version. Why not make a version without VMOD and have a test version where we can try out the features we discuss about on the forum?

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by Dafling on Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:13 pm

GaDo1 wrote:Discussion about how to balance VMOD hasn't been made in public (on this forum) and yet another feature has been added again without people knowing it. What are you doing, Dafling?
It is a balancing feature, it's not something that aggravates V mod. It's a nerf to V mod.
I actually announced this nerf in the "FIFA World Cup version" thread, perhaps not the best place for it.

GaDo1 wrote:
Besides, this poll isn't for balancing, it's for removing VMOD from the newest version. Why not make a version without VMOD and have a test version where we can try out the features we discuss about on the forum?
One step at a time. This is the starting nerf. After this version is played for a while and there is feedback, we can act accordingly - either leave the V mod in place or continue nerfing, possibly removing it in the end.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ServusSnape on Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:42 am

Could you and i aspire the sorry schemes entire?

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ultrapro on Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:15 am

For me the map without any vmod (i highly recommend to allow it in your team's penalty spot) will become the same as if it was added curve: HOW CAN YOU PREVENT THE GOAL IF CAN HAPPEN IS:
1. the ball crosses the goal.
2. You V; ball goes down; opponent scores X/VZ/V.
this is why it sux even more than slow V.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by GaDo1 on Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:14 pm

We have been playing the old 7.44a2.2 version for quite a while now and it's gotten to the point that everyone's used to not playing with VMOD.
However, I think the idea from ultrapro is great, so why don't you make a version with VMOD added, but only in the penalty box? I think that is the biggest issue with not having VMOD, which is not being able to clear away the ball if you are defending inside the penalty box.
Since I don't see you in-game, I have to tell you that, overall, the games seem more much enjoyable to everyone right now. No one is complaining about the game itself, just about their team when they lose.

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Re: VMod: The Great Debate (POLL)

Post by ShineXXX on Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:21 pm

i agree. The idea seems nice.
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The main function of game died

Post by AlexWarPro on Thu Oct 23, 2014 6:02 pm

I categorically against it. With all respect to the legends this map and ordinary players, whick against "V MOD", i still give my opinion!

Main advantages:
1 ) Game balance is a better

Main disadvantages:
1 ) The game has become much more predictability.
2 ) Remove the set of possible tactical actions.
3 ) Now attract newcomers wil be only a beaurtiful football field and ball...
4 ) To score in the penalty area the enemy has become easier.
5 ) Recumbent ball in the penalty area becomes incredibly difficult and in some cases impossible to derive due to their actions do not let it out of the goalkeeper (not logical / not correct / not really).
6 ) Tackling the opponent does not prove any individual skill.
7 ) The game takes the form of volleyball, because of the frequent throwing the ball from one side to another.
8 ) Possible beauty of football and the opportunities for creative players wiped off the face cards.
9 ) disappears possibility commitment to player development to a higher level. The game became very simple. The only thing that can be developed as an X dribbling, instead of (Selection of a flying ball in the air, selection in the air, dribble, many tricks by V mod etc.).
10) Getting less fun the game.

Misunderstanding:
Do you have a thought does not arise "" Why I myself do not control the direction of the ball, "" when you press the jump every time and the ball flies to where he wants, and not where you want and need you!
That is, it turns out that the ball is not a passive thing in the game, but also active, which decides where to fly - WHAT ??? You go on about the ball. How so guys !? You can not allow this in any case. The ball must obey any of your thoughts, but not as much as we have now! May soon cancel all the modes and skills and simply will observe nothing pressing?

About beginners can forget forever:
The only thing that makes the game unpredictable and hot is "V MOD" and with its abolition, we completely lose the opportunity to have new peoples interested in this game.

A little bit of my story:
I started playing in the version 7.44d
When I first found this map I was amazed that someone took it all in his head to do it. I was struck by literally everyone, and then I began to play it and think, what kind of functions can be started here to learn a lot of new ... I realized that if you jump, the flying ball will fly to the nearest ally (I played it for about a month with beginners). I used almost only that, but one day I invited Speсtre964 to practice together and teach him some things. As in the day, I was just amazed, so that opened "V MOD", which I suspect even could not! I was greatly pleased, because the game has everything to make it really played. On that day, we both in 20 minutes in one game have learned how to use V MOD. And then I could say with certainty that I will look for beginners and I would be, what they are interested in and I did it.

What could be simpler:
Apparently the main reason that people refuse V MOD, then it is not easy to execute? Honestly, I did not understand the main reasons for rejection of "V MOD" and not much going after all, with any resulting "V MOD" problem is easily solved!
What could be simpler as a sequential two keystrokes (V + X) + mouse buttons? I do not understand ... When I coached his novices, and it was an awful lot of them, about 60-80, ~ 70% of the learned V MOD.

Сonclusion:
That is, of all the above I can understand the fact that if not for "V MOD", I would not even look for beginners, giving it almost 50% of their leisure time, only because I do not have something to attract them to the game, showing all the features of the card at the beginning of training for beginners.
It turns out that there would be no story, I brought in Battle.NET! Therefore concluded guys. We just drown the map, moving away from an improved and back in time for a very stupid reason.
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AlexWarPro

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